Gentlemen, I want to thank you for making an effort to maintain an intellectual/philosophical focus here.  Political debates can often devolve into petty name-calling, and the courtesy that GOOOH members continue to show each other when dialogueing (often vehemently) over contentious issues is one of the things I'm most pleased to see in this forum.

Please continue honoring the spirit (not just the letter) of the forum rules, as well as your fellow members.  Remember, we're all on the same side in regards to GOOOH.  The strength of GOOOH is that it unifies people of diverse political interests around the core principle of our republic:  representative government.

John, thanks for the thorough rundown, and glad to see you opposing so many of the 10 points listed below.  Not sure if you're aware, but they are the 10 assertions that Marx and Engels put forward in the Communist Manifesto as necessary to subvert a capitalist society into a communist state.  You were beginning to worry me with your support for wealth redistribution, a foundational philosophy of communism. 

I personally agree with Milton Friedman on his views toward wealth redistribution: "'From each according to his ability, to each according to his need' turns ability into a liability and need into an asset."  If you're not familiar with Friedman's works, or similar thinkers, I highly recommend reading Capitalism and Freedom, Portable Conservative Reader, Fatal Conceit: The Errors of Socialism, The Conservative Mind, and Freedom & Virtue.

-- 4/12/2008 4:17:35 PM.

Last I heard it is offered in multiple languages, including Spanish, French, and German, in the interest of fairness.  That might have changed, but I doubt it.  Also, I believe most government forms can be found in multiple languages.  I think the main reason behind this is because we do not officially have a National Language.

Since you keep bringing up the fence, I will go ahead and point out that it is a nice distraction, but it will not do much in the effort to stop illegal immigration.  But why take my word on this, I saw a nice little article yesterday.  http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5693569.html

The fence might delay, or slow down, illegal immigration and drug trafficing, but it will not stop it.

Christopher: Really, they offer citizenship tests in languages other than English? That's pathetic.

I'm thinking that once the border fence goes up, it will be pretty effective, and the would-be illegal immigrants will still want to get into the country for work. So, we let them, by increasing the number of allowed immigrants, while keeping strict citizenship tests in place. The number isn't unreasonable, it's already pretty high. But once the fence is completed, those benign immigrants won't have a way to come in to get jobs. I don't think that our nation should set a limit on the number of immigrants just because it feels right, because it feels like it's high enough. And with the tests in place we'll be able to keep the truly undesirable out.

vicentefoxsucks: Although the states should have some say in illegal immigration, I think the federal government should be the main ones to make the rules and regulations about it. After all, the issue is about Mexicans becoming United States citizens, not about the states in particular. The states are free to put their own policies in place as long as they don't disobey the federal government.

I shall explain, States should not be deciding if illegal immigrants are allowed to stay, be employed, or have access to government funder programs.  They should follow the rules set forth by the federal government.  That is what I mean when I say they should not be making policy.  It should be the responsibility of the federal government to make the laws and regulations when it comes to immigration and foriegn relations.  States and lower government should definately not be coming out and saying that they will not enforce the immigration laws and will not assist the federal government with the enforcement of those laws.  I am alright with the local government adding additional fines, or stricter punishments for those who do not comply with the laws.  If the state government believes that the laws need to be changed, then they should look to the Congressmen of that state to change the laws at the federal level.

   Chris,

        The states should have an enormous say about illegal immigration.  Who do you think pays for the illegals free health care?  The tooth fairy??  And the border states take the brunt of this abuse!  I should not have used that exclamation point, I might hurt someone's feelings.  Feelings, nothing more than feelings.

Vicent, do you really think that all people around his age think and act the same way?  I'm not much older than John.  A person's opinions might be related to age and life experience, but that in no way make their opinions any less valid.  If you don't agree with someone, then explain your point of view on the subject, don't attack the person.

Now, let me get back on subject.  Vicent is right that compassion will do us in.  If we take it too far, then other countries will walk all over us.  The same can be said for things that happen in everyday life.  There has to be limits or people will treat you like a doormat.

John, the immigration laws are put in place to do like you said, weed out the "trash".  I am not certain of the limits on the number of legal immigrants allowed in the country, but they are probally not unreasonable.  Again, the immigration laws are designed to protect the citizens as well as the immigrants.  I do think that the tests to become a citizen should be difficult, but I also think they should only be offered in English.  That should also become the National Language. 

Any kind of reform or fix to the immigration system must be done from within Congress, since this is a national problem.  States and lower governments should not be making policy relating to immigration, aside from enforcing the existing laws.

  John,

     Like I said, compassion will destroy the USA.  Have a nice liberal life.  Sorry I broke the rules.  But rules are made to be broken remember?  Just like the illegals are breaking the rules (laws) of my country.  I guess that is fine to a generation that wear their caps sideways and their pants falling off.  And you expect me to take a generation seriously  that walks the streets of my country thinking that looking like that is important and cool?  Please.  I started this compassion topic and now I am dropping out. 

vicentefoxsucks, why are you resorting to belittling me for my age? It's against the forum rules, rule # 8 in particular. It's also a logical fallacy called ad hominem. Debate the post, not the poster. True, I am young, but I have a decent idea of how the world works. Also, many adult voters agree with me on this issue, in general. I'm not being naive.

Name calling isn't going to help you; "immature thinking?" That's a personal attack. This is a place to discuss politics and general political issues, and to talk to, understand, educate, and debate each other, not to insult others for whatever reason. So please, read the rules, and talk about the topic.

If indeed I am wrong, and illegal immigrants come through and absolutely destroy the country, I would partially be at fault, and I wouldn't complain of anything except my own stupidity/ignorance. But we don't know if that's going to happen. You can't tell exactly what the future will hold; don't pretend that you can.

"I think I will end up in jail for the beating I give them!"

Are you serious? You think that if it happens, you'll beat and deliberately injure other people because they were wrong? That's messed up. I REALLY hope that you don't have anger management issues, for the sake of those around you that you don't agree with.

Christopher, I too think that we shouldn't allow immigrants to enter the country if they're unable or unwilling to speak and comprehend beginning English and road signals. As for those already living in the country that can't assimilate with our culture... we might as well get rid of them. Same for those that feel they have to resort to identity theft, which can destroy lives. But if they can speak English, and they can drive well, and they can get a job here, without illegally inconveniencing, they should be allowed to stay.

It looks like the border fence is going to be completed, which will greatly deter illegal immigrants. Once it's built, it'll likely stay there. Then, we should elimminate the immigrant quotas, and have strict tests for citizenship, which include English competency, driving skill, criminal background checks, and the capability to get a job. That way we could weed out trash and greatly reduce crimes directly related to immigration. What do you think?